How religion is getting out of hand.

[OPIE]

We've had many debates about several different topics revolving around religion ect... But through recent events and even events through history I've noticed a very ugly trend. That trend is that Religion is literally getting out of control. Either through clear stupidity or people being falsely "lead" by there church leaders ect... It is becoming a serious problem in America today.

My first point will come off the recent event of the World Trade Center "Cross". We all know how buildings are constructed with Steel beams that intersect each other at the center usually forming what looks like a Giant + (plus) sign or the end result looking like a giant holly wood squares game. When the towers collapsed one of those cross sections had broke off at the top and sides and landed in the rubble  at the bottom of the site and appeared to be in the shape of the Christian symbol, the cross. Christians around the world thought this to be a divine sign from God that this great act of Evil befell America and that he is watching over us just because a piece of that intersecting steel fell down in the shape of a cross. Silly? I think so. Above all species on this planet the most violent is the human race and even Christians and even Americans. Yeap, we give into our beastly nature and kill each other sometimes. Not saying that what happened wasn't Evil or a great tragedy I am simply just pointing out some simple points and facts.

So this cross was moved from the site and now they want to move it back. I paid no attention to these intersecting pieces of steel until they said they wanted to move it back to the site where thousands of people of MANY DIFFERENT FAITHS died that day. That's when I got upset. As you all know I am a former Christian turned Atheist. I heard the voice of Reason and the teachings of Logic and did a lot of research myself and came to a conclusion. There is no God. How ever I have no issues with others who believe in God and practice their faith so long as they keep it to themselves and don't push their beliefs on others. Now here is the problem.

More so then ever the people of America and other countries are under the impression that America is a Christian Nation. This is simply not true and to believe such a thing is in all technicalities Un-American. I say this because America is a country that above most of all stands for Freedom, Equal Rights and Tolerance. With those freedoms comes the Freedom of Religion. Even if the majority of Americans are Christians that still does not make us a Christian Nation. To think that is also very dangerous. If you take a look at history religion has never had any problem with killing and violence. Christians most of all. Christians today are of no exception. I point you to this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjmLnC3T9Ds&feature=player_embedded

Now that is only the voice of a few but we all know that those few is actually the voice of many...a lot. The Scary thing is that these "Christians" are actually not being Christian. But they seem perfectly ok to justify their actions and think it is ok to believe that this is the right path of Christianity. They are becoming the majority voice of Christianity and it's extremely frightening. People will argue that they are not "True Christians". I personally hate this term. It's like saying the color blue is actually the color red. Bottom line is they follow the Christian faith and these comments and actions by Christians is being seen as appropriate and justified by other Christians and is what is being regularly taught to our children today. Hate those who don't believe what you believe and SAVE as many as possible! THAT right there is the big issue. Hate and Love don't mix and this whole personal Christian mission of SAVING others is wrong. Keep thy faith to thy self.

Religion is like a penis, keep it covered in public, only share it with a willing partner and don't ram it down kids throats.

So in conclusion to just this one point. The "Christians" are angry with the Atheists who have filed lawsuit to protect the United States Constitution of Separation of Church and State to keep the "Cross" from ending up on a site where thousands of Americans and non-Americans died of many different faiths. By putting the "Cross" there it would be unconstitutional. But the AMERICAN "Christian Nation" is outraged because of this lawsuit.  Even though the Lawsuit is actually protecting the AMERICAN CONSTITUTION. Again Christianity has shown it's true colors, violence and hatred to all who don't believe in what they believe even though in America and many places in the world today. We are free to believe what we want to believe in.

Now I will touch base on how Christians think Atheists are lunatics and don't respect the beliefs of others. I point you to this Image.



This is only one bill board annnnd it's from West Virginia, one of the more religious states along side North Carolina and the entire Midwest Bible Belt. But that is besides the point. The point is that this Bill Board is nothing else but Propaganda. Propaganda is dangerous and the scary thing is people actually believe this. Again we fall upon the whole "Believe in what I believe in or I'll HURT YOU!" Religion also has a funny way with twisting true meanings and words to sway the beliefs of others. That Bill Board is a Prime example. They are attacking the American "Pride". OH NO! NOT OUR PRIDE! First off you cannot be PROUD to be an American. That is another Term I hate so much. There is no Pride in being an American. You were born an American. It is not PRIDE it is a PRIVILEDGE! Back to the point. So many Americans have such high pride that when their pride is in danger they will flock to what ever they can flock to to protect it. In this case, God. Because our enemies who believe in God so wouldn't pray to him too! NO WAY THEY COULDN'T! So if there is a God he will surely just protect AMERICA! HAS TO! Psssssh, dumb asses.

That is just another example of why religion is getting out of control and needs to be stopped. These people are idiots and have fallen below the level of ignorance on the subject matter.

We all heard about the shooting in Norway. It was sad and 92 people lost their lives. The man, Anders Breivik, was of the Christian faith and all of his motives were driven BY THE CHRISTIAN FAITH even though our "True Christians" will say no Christian would ever do that. Here we have our right wing media trying to denounce that he was even Christian and blame it on Muslims. OMG THIS IS SO Christian! Hide the fact that we did something bad and blame it on someone else! GENIUS! I point you to this article.

http://www.alternet.org/story/151774/8_dumbest%2C_most_insensitive_right-wing_reactions_to_the_norway_shooting?akid=7305.270450.RZXRpl&rd=1&t=21

I am going to cut this argument short and just say the point you will get from the article. He was a Christian, he commited an act of Terrorism. Christian + Terrorism = Christian Terrorist. OH NO! THE CHRISTIAN NAME IS BEING SLANDERED! HEATHEN! It is what it is. Yes Christians you can be terrorists and still be called Christians. Just because he commited an act of terrorism does not make him a Muslim or man of any other faith. In a way you can compare Christianity with a lot of the worlds Governments, they hide facts and truths.

Now I want to point you to a man who speaks as lot of common sense. Yes he's an Atheist. And please don't turn away from the video when you see Connecticut
Valley Atheists as the title in the opening portion of the video. It's not an Atheist bashing religion. He talks about us setting aside our differences about our views on what we believe in and coming together to fix the real issues with this dysfunctional country we live in called America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAJ_ulHChY

Now there are a lot of Christians that HATE Atheists. But doesn't your bible teach you to love your fellow brothers (man) and not to hate. Hmmmm seems so Christian to me. Many Christians out there try to commit to the argument that Atheists believe in nothing. BULL FUCKING SHIT! In all actuality we Atheists believe in EVERYTHING. We believe in everything that is proven, that is real, that is fact. I point you to this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuzphsydm7o

Christians out there will also try and argue many other points without actually having prior knowledge of said topic on hand. They just blindly follow unproven points and believe them to be true. Here are some examples.

Whilst agreeing that random patterns occur naturally by chance, DNA however, consists of code, which requires a designer.

Atheist's Scientific response.

A code does not simply require a designer - it requires an encoder and a decoder who agree on its meaning. Or more generally, a code requires a set of understanders. It makes no sense to speak of something being a "code" unless it encodes a message of some sort from a sender to a receiver. That is to say, to call DNA a "code" at all is question-begging. DNA is a chemical which interacts with other chemicals according to well-understood laws of chemistry and physics.

However, if we wish to speak of it as encoding a message, then that message surely comes not from a god but from prior generations of living things. The messages our distant ancestors have left for us are such things as; "this is a good way to make a muscle", "this is how you digest food", "it is a good idea to run away from things that look like this", and of course those instincts that make us a social species such as "punish the wicked", and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Try praying. What good is it when a mind is set to coincidence & disbelief regarding the positive outcome?

Atheist's Scientific response.

Try praying for what? Prayer will not set a broken bone; prayer will not move a mountain. Prayer has been tested scientifically and it failed. The Templeton Foundation funded a prayer study to find out if prayer helped recovery after heart surgery. The results were conclusive that prayer did not help; on the contrary, it showed that those who knew they were being prayed for actually experienced more complications during recovery. Brain studies have shown that the same areas of the brain are active during meditation and talking problems out with friends, these latter two having greater results in improving on the quality of life. Try praying? I say try a little meditation and have a few drinks at dinner with friends; it will do you a lot more good.

Now before you start this is not me trying to disprove the unproven existence of God. After all how do you disprove that which is not proven. I am mearly using this information as an example of how people of religious faith follow unproven facts so blindly they believe them to be true. They don't know the full truth and in a lot of ways are purposely kept in the dark.

The Church is a business...unfortunately a TAX EXEMPT business. And they will do everything and anything to protect their money making abilities. 10% or more before taxes right guys? Now if you belong to a church or just a person of faith are two separate things. The Church is a danger but these Extremists or Zealots are even more dangerous. Devotion is by far the most dangerous weapon out there and these people wield it like a double edged sword with fire coming out the tip. It's scary and it's out of control.

New York state just recently wrote into law that homosexuals now have the right to marry. It's not called a union, partnership it is simply called MARRIAGE! Equal Rights. There were so many people protesting during the final hours of the decision being made just because they were either Homophobic or strictly for religious reasons. If they realized the big picture and truly do believe in their faith they would realize a VERY IMPORTANT FACT! That supposed God gave mankind FREE WILL. A Choice. A choice to follow him or not follow him. So WHY?!?! WHY?!?!?!?! DOES THIS BOTHER PEOPLE that gays can get married and be HAPPY BY THERE OWN CHOICE! Using the FREE WILL that God gave them. Fucking IGNORANCE! This is just another example of how religion is out of hand. The Constitution separates the Church and the State. Well Marriage is a STATE LEGAL BINDING BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE! STATE!!!!!!!!!!!! I say again STATE!!!!!!!! But religion still holds influence OVER the State even though it is Separate. SIIIIIGGGGHHHHH!

I reiterate again that America is NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION! It is a nation of FREEDOM, EQUAL RIGHTS and TOLERANCE!

I really hope you all read this far and took the time to watch all those videos. This is not just one of my rants this is a serious problem that America is facing TODAY! And something needs to be done about it. Regardless of what you believe if you are rational and care about what this country was built upon you will take action against this increasing threat to the roots of America its self. Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, whatever....in the end we are all Human. And to oppress the rights of others based off of faith is WRONG and in all actuality goes against EVERYTHING your FAITH teaches you.

Please post your thoughts.

[Vanish]

I admit I skimmed most of your post. Just a few thoughts from someone who has been agnostic longer than you've been alive and who hates organized religion:

Atheists are equally bad. They say they are for tolerance and understanding, yet they take away our Nation's pledge because it has one word they cannot accept. We can no longer have Christmas Break, it must be Winter break, even thought the dates are specifically set around that holiday, and NOT any of the others in that month. They want to change our nation's motto put on the first bills we ever produced because they don't trust in "God". Tolerance my ass. This is no different than expecting people to have faith and religion.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this IS a Christian nation. It was founded as such and the population is still greater than 60% in their favor. (I would find a link to the study that figure comes from that was completed last year but I don't have the time. Sorry. Google is your friend) The true tolerance came from those Christians. they welcomed those of other faiths into their nation, an act unheard of at that time. They promoted diversity. Most of them still do. Sure there are radicals, but you just went on a bent making it seems as though they are ALL radical. I suppose you take offense when someone speaks poorly of Muslims because, after all, it's just the radicals that are a problem. Pot meet kettle.

I am glad you justified your choice of Atheism because it's the only logical choice. I was there 27 years ago. I have a very logical and analytical mind, so I didn't stop there. The fact is, there are some things science cannot explain and making statements like "We can't explain it now, but someday we will" make me laugh because that's nothing more than faith, which is the basis of every religion on the planet. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

No one has the right answer, yet at the same time everyone has the right answer for themselves, and that's all that matters. If you don't like seeing the religion sector standing up for themselves and being vocal about it, you probably shouldn't condone the vocal outcry and actions of the atheistic sector the past 30 years. Tomato, tomato. Believing otherwise is folly and only fooling yourself.

[OPIE]

Actually V you are incorrect. America was not founded by Christians. It was founded by Pagans.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/pagan.htm

And no America is NOT a Christian Nation. Just because the majority of the population is Christian does not make it a Christian nation. It simply means most people are of the Christian Faith. Saying America is a Christian Nation is pretty much throwing anyone who doesn't believe in the Christian God rights away. Saying it's a Christian Nation sways away from Equal Rights for all and allows the Christians to build laws based around their beliefs and faith which is oppression. 

Just like you stated that there are radicals of the Christian faith there are also radicals of the Atheist group. Atheists preach tolerance most of all because removing "God" from the pledge is actually constitutional. To make every American say "under God" when they may not believe in God is actually intolerance. America stands for Tolerance towards every ones beliefs. If Christians were truly tolerant to every ones beliefs they would keep there beliefs to themselves as would everyone else. That means removing God from the pledge and on the currency. That would be True Tolerance. The same goes for all other Americans who have different beliefs. Keep it to yourself. But unfortunately it's not like that and has basically boiled down into a giant screaming match of "My God is bigger then your God!!!!!11!11!ONE ELVENITY ONE!!11!

If everyone just kept their beliefs to themselves it would solve a lot of problems. But no, as stated above there is the issue of gay marriage and abortion. Religion is publicly voicing out against it just because they don't agree with it. When they fail to understand that if there is a God then they should just let everyone make their own decisions and there decisions would be between them and God. Long story short. EVERYONE JUST NEEDS TO SHUT THE FUCK UP!

See when you also put phrases like "In God We Trust" the entire world gets the impression that EVERYONE from there believes that. It's like Family Guy and The Simpsons. Hilarious shows I love them to death. But they are an American show. So the entire world outside of America is going to think that every average house hold family is EXACTLY like that show. It's Ignorance, yes. But when that impression is being made it causes issues.

No one has the right answer, yet at the same time everyone has the right answer for themselves, and that's all that matters.

That is probably the most intelligent thing I've heard in a long time...and that's sad lol. But it is 100% correct. Now if everyone could just live with that Satisfaction instead of screaming at each other of who's God is bigger or who is right and wrong...the world might actually work.

But my main point still stands. Religion is out of control and something has to be done.

[Vanish]

Before I begin, let me point out this is not an attack on you personally. You just happen to be the representation of the "opposition" in this thread.

Wow, that was a seriously awesome rewriting of factual history, Opie. You then spouted the typical atheist dribble doing what all good radicals desperate to prove their point do: Misinterpret a law to suit your argument. Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with language or terminology and everything to do with keeping Papal powers out of political power. You can't interpret the intent of a law written centuries ago by today's standards. That's why the amendment system exists, to update the language to be relevant to a modern time. But then, that wouldn't support the atheist argument and agenda.

So basically, thanks for proving my point. Much appreciated.

You missed much of my point though. The Atheists are no more tolerant of other beliefs than any other group they decry. They are as much a part of our problems as anyone else, radical or not. The vehemence of your post is proof of that.

Telling homosexuals they have no right to marry is on par with telling those of the Christian faith they can't refer to winter break as Christmas Break, even though that's exactly what it was for generations. If you don't believe in God, don't speak that part of the pledge, or to be even more tolerant, how about letting those who do say the pledge every morning in school instead of screaming about separation of church and state? Wait. Isn't that like saying marriage is religious idea and as written must exist between a man and a woman? Sure sounds a lot the same.

For the record, I believe the institution of marriage sees no harm by embracing same sex unions. The people who say it invalidates their marriage obviously don't have much of a marriage if it is cast asunder so easily. I also think homosexuals should have to go through the same shit we heteros do. SUFFER WITH US! I also believe the pledge of allegiance is an important part of our history and our patriotism, every variation of it. It would be better to return to the original, which did not include Under God, than to ban it completely. That was a heinous act that undermines our country far more than any Christian event ever has.

Here's one you missed, though, that is largely being argued by the religious, and one hell of a lot of us Independents of all faiths too, that the democrats and atheists are fighting tooth and nail: Illegal Immigration. Let's not go there though. It would require far too long a thread to even begin explaining how fucked up the Liberals are on that subject. Calling those against amnesty for Illegals "Intolerant of foreigners" is pure bullshit. There is a legal process to become a citizen. No one has a problem with people who follow that going into this country. The ones who work around it to be here illegally? They are an insult to those who followed due process and followed our laws to be here legally.

[Blimigerite]

This is always a tough subject.  I get what you're trying to say but I think you're really going to the opposite extreme.  Religion isn't getting out of hand, just a few individuals.  Sure there are the extremes, and it always seems like there are a lot more then there really are just by the fact that they are the loudest voice in the room.  Just look at the Kansas Westboro Baptist's group protesting all the funerals and junk.  But there are a lot of more reasonable people out there.  Groups that try to protect the victims of the protesting, trying to shield the family from the signs and the screaming.

Religion is a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  Even among Catholics which are about the most cohesive you have a large group of their members that disregard what the pope advocates such as birth control, condoms, same sex marriage, abortion, ect.  I fully expect full rights granted to same sex marriages throughout the country within the next decade or two.  Change comes a little slow to those pushing the agenda, but overall the country is a mixture of many different groups that respect individuality and the ability to make your own choices.  Most people just want to do what they want and as long as it doesn't hurt someone else there really is no little reason why it shouldn't be accepted.

With regards to symbols like the world trade center steel cross there are always the opposite extreme like the vandalism with that WW1 cross that sat in the Mojave desert.  The ACLU took a case to the Supreme Court to remove the cross since it was on federal land.  Congress took a few steps like selling the land to a private owner, giving it federal monument protection, ect which did make a lot of the opposition mad.  But the Supreme Court ruled the cross could remain in a 5-4 decision and shortly afterwards it was stolen.  Why anyone would devote so much time and effort to care about some cross a WW1 veteran planted in the desert 10 miles off the interstate in the middle of no where I can't understand.  To be honest I think such displays silly I wouldn't want to fight for the right to include nor ban such symbols.  It's just a waste of energy and sometimes just seems shameful to try to force an issue like some groups strive to. 

But I think I've devoted enough time to this post.  In conclusion, leave people alone and let them do what they want.  But if they piss you off go ahead and bitch about it.  America is a country that allows you to do things like that and while it does make the country a little crazy sometimes it really has had a good effect on the country over the centuries. 

[OPIE]

Well let me first point out a couple things. I don't have a lot of time to really construct a post here so I will be brief.

Me, personally I don't care about Christmas/winter Break or even "God" being in the pledge. It doesn't bother me. I still call Christmas, Christmas It's the way I said it when I grew up and the fact that it has "Christ" in the name doesn't bother me. I was just simply trying to argue certain points.

I don't know what you were refering directly to when you stated I rewrote history :-p But if you were refering to my point that America was founded by Pagans. Well I spoke to several History professors about it and a few of my friends who are all history majors and they all agree with me on that point. But anyways.

Going back on a previous point. Yeah 60% of the population according to statistics are of the Christian faith. But we all know for a fact that a good 20% of that 60% are not really "Christians" As pointed out in that one video there are many who just "wear" the name so others believe they are good people. You might as well rename the country "Christian America" if you are going to call it a Christian Nation, which it is not.

Wait. Isn't that like saying marriage is religious idea and as written must exist between a man and a woman? Sure sounds a lot the same.

It's written like that based off of religious fundamentals. That's the way it was for ages but now when people realize that having it that way is technically not constitutional it started to change. The problem is it should of changed Nationally and all at once. But it didn't. It's going one state at a time and I am afraid not all the states will accept it...BASED OFF RELIGION! When God gets brought into it that's where I get mad. Because bringing God into an argument is like placing evidence on a suspect questioned for murder just so you can get somebody. It's not right. I watched the whole NY State Senate making the decision wither or not to allow it everyone who voted no did it for religious reasons.

So I am afraid even though people are embracing the idea that people who are homosexual and should have the same rights as anybody else in America but it's still not happening...no, then what you state that people are tolerant and see that others should have the same rights simply is not true. Because the change hasn't happened and why? Religion.

[Vanish]

The rewrite I was talking about was the site you linked to. The American Indians pre-existing here is irrelevant to who founded the nation. Puritans and Protestants founded the nation and much of what that site claimed about them is bogus and flies in the face of every history text written prior to Atheistic change perpetuated mostly via the ACLU, one of the worst organizations in this country. I won't get started on that, though. That gets my blood boiling. I'll sum it up as KKK == NAACP == ACLU. All hate organizations.

Here's my point about being a Christian Nation. Would you say we have a Republican House and a Democrat Senate? Yup, most everyone would right now. Why? That's the party with the majority in each house. Therefore, 60% Christian population == Christian Nation. It doesn't mean "everyone citizen is a Christian" and only small-minded people would ever think so. (The same ones who think the Simpsons are indicative of our familial experience) Those people, thankfully, are few and far between, and sadly most live in the U.S. ("Iowa has Skyscrapers and paved roads?!" Fracking idiots calling in to the aid show for the flood of 1993)

I'll see your throwing God into and raise you a throwing Global Warming/Climate change into it. Science disproves both, but those are the two largest vocal groups right now and they are polar opposites.

[OPIE]

I didn't really research that site I originally linked there. I just sort of found it and posted it. My mistake for not looking into it.

I still don't agree with you on the whole Christian Nation thing but this is where we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. We both see it from different view points and both sides make good points. All I will say is that again a good 20% of that 60% are not really Christian.

I have little time to do much debating so I will leave it at that for now lol.

[Thunder]

A big problem in the world today is that all the extremists are the ones making the front pages.  Our modern media doesn't care about representing any particular group in a correct light, it is all about the ratings baby.  Most Christians I've ever met are quite kind to any and all people, regardless of what they look like, etc.   But, to group any one people and hold them all the the same light is bound to get distorted. 

Look at this Tea Party movement, a few people supposedly made racist comments and now oh snap THEY'RE ALL RACIST!  Or they wanted our representatives to actually, um, fix the debt problem but instead their opponents are all WHY CAN'T YOU COMPROMISE!!??  YOU'RE HOLDING THIS COUNTRY HOSTAGE YOU TERRORISTS!  It is amazing how there was no compromise on Obama$care - but it will be fun to hear all the polarized excuses when the Health Care Deform bill's true colors are shown.

Religion is "out of hand?"  Are we to banish religion?  Secular Humanism is a religion in itself, I suspect there are a few ghosts in Russia who would disagree.

Next time there's a school shooting, remember what we teach our little snowflakes:

Life is an accident
There is no god
We're all just animals
Now go be ethical and stuff

Good luck with that.

[Kindred]

The fact is, there are some things science cannot explain and making statements like "We can't explain it now, but someday we will" make me laugh because that's nothing more than faith, which is the basis of every religion on the planet. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not atheist, but to be fair, their "faith" is based on the advancement of science and technology, which does explain many things.  The faith in religion is for the most part entirely baseless and indemonstrable.  They are two different types of faith if you want to play with words.

[Vanish]

Ahh, but then you get into the old These studies prove this, but those studies disprove them. Science is no more exact than religion. The difference in faith really boils down to religious faith being unwavering, and scientific faith waffling with the wind.

(Bear in mind, I prefer science to religion. I'm just scientific enough to know that it's no more perfect or correct)

[OU8]

Science is no more exact than religion.

You must be confusing science with Scientology.  Tell me you were exaggerating to prove a point.  You...were...kidding, right?

This has been a good debate, with both sides presenting some good food for thought.  But, ultimately arguing over opinion has no right or wrong answer...its an opinion. 

Seems to me the arguments here tend to focus on slight misstatements, rather than focusing on the main point.  Hey, very few of are are word-smiths, and know how to say something exactly to the point we're trying to make.  For example, OPIE starts by stating "Religion is literally getting out of control."  What does that even mean?  Was Religion ever "in control"?  But, rather than get clarification, we all take the ball and run with it.  Maybe a better statement would have been: "Certain people within the religious community are starting to do & say things which, to an average person, seem to be outside of accepted norms for human behaviour."  To which one could argue that people hiding behind the cloak of "religion" have been doing unspeakable things to others for thousands of years.  Your framing it as a "new" issue seems a little off.  I think the media coverage of it has pushed it more to the spotlight (someone mentioned this, I think).  But I think we all know the main-stream media whores will do anything to get viewers, increase ratings, and sell commercial air time (my opinion). 

America stands for Tolerance towards every ones beliefs. If Christians were truly tolerant to every ones beliefs they would keep there beliefs to themselves as would everyone else.

I would argue America tries to be tolerant, but there are many examples to list that would show we fail too many times.  Try asking the native people how tolerant our "founders" were.  Killed the majority of the people, stripped them of most everything from their culture, and made them be more like "us" *rolls eyes*.

Anyway....
The following is my main point.  Again, I don't have the time or ability to say this exactly as I'm trying to say.  I would please ask that you focus on the point, not the exact words used to deliver the message.

I would argue that instinctively, each individual is born with a desire to survive, which cannot be anything but a selfish act.  In order to live, each and every one of us must use resources to keep our body living (eat, breathe, drink, shelter).  And when we use resources, that means something else can't (selfish).  Over time, humans learned that by surrounding ourselves with "like" people, it made it easier to live and survive together.  But, when confronted with "unlike" people, our defenses naturally go up.  Its instinctive, and we've tried as a species to overcome that through teaching tolerance.  But tolerance is on a spectrum; saying you're "tolerant" or "not tolerant" is never true....your individual tolerance is somewhere in between "always" and "never".  The religious folk that started this whole thread are closer to the "never" side, and prey upon those who are towards the "always" side.  Those of us "normal" people in the mid-range tolerate others in the "normal" range, but have to keep those extremes in check (through intolerance, ironically).  But, try as we do, we will always end up with a 9/11, a Waco, Oslo bomber, or Charles Manson.  These horrific people and events they caused take us back to the selfish origins of our species (and of every other species).  But, now I'm getting horribly close to another topic which would surely cause some veins to pop out of peoples necks.  So....

Be as tolerant as you can.  But keep the extremists in check.  Ignore the hype created by the media; they are just there to fan the flames, whether the flames are real or not.  Now, where'd I put my notes on Carrying Capacity.........

[Kub]

Ahh, but then you get into the old These studies prove this, but those studies disprove them. Science is no more exact than religion. The difference in faith really boils down to religious faith being unwavering, and scientific faith waffling with the wind.

(Bear in mind, I prefer science to religion. I'm just scientific enough to know that it's no more perfect or correct)

Science is a tool.  Calling science a religion is like calling the hammer used to build a church a religion.

Sometimes science sheds light on certain topics, and human nature then elevates those topics to a religion-like state, but science itself is just the method.

[Vanish]

Science is no more exact than religion.

You must be confusing science with Scientology.  Tell me you were exaggerating to prove a point.  You...were...kidding, right?

I was indeed exaggerating, however I still point you to my statement that for every study that proves something, there's at least one other that disproves it which does mean science isn't very exact. It never can be s long as interpretation of gathered data is part of the method, as it always will be. Which brings me to:

Science is a tool.  Calling science a religion is like calling the hammer used to build a church a religion.

Sometimes science sheds light on certain topics, and human nature then elevates those topics to a religion-like state, but science itself is just the method.

I agree with that assessment right up until you say anything resembling "according to scientific studies". At that point, it starts getting grey. How grey it goes from there depends on the person wielding the tool and if they are using it for a cause or not.

[Kub]

I was indeed exaggerating, however I still point you to my statement that for every study that proves something, there's at least one other that disproves it which does mean science isn't very exact. It never can be s long as interpretation of gathered data is part of the method, as it always will be. Which brings me to:

I agree with that assessment right up until you say anything resembling "according to scientific studies". At that point, it starts getting grey. How grey it goes from there depends on the person wielding the tool and if they are using it for a cause or not.

Man, that's way too broad of a stroke.  Different fields have different precision.  Health sciences are the worst, but even the contradictions in studies in that field are mostly misinterpretations, not by the scientists but by the moron reporters who don't take the time to understand the conclusions of the study, or don't understand the difference between causation and correlation.

If someone told me they measured the magnetic moment of the proton down to X number of digits, there's not really any ambiguity, even though there's always room to do a better job.

My point is I agree with you in a sense, but I think I disagree on the source and scope of the problem.